By Dennis Stacy
An Interview With The Dean 1985
Re-Edited for CUFON by Dale Goudie 1991
For over two decades, from 1948 to 1969, Dr. J. Allen Hynek was a consultant
in astronomy to the United States Air Force. The subject of his advice,
however, was not the fledgling space program or even the moon and stars
above, but Unidentified Flying Objects. In 1973 he founded the Center for
UFO Studies (CUFOS) and had serves as Director and editor of its journal,
“International UFO Reporter.”
STACY: Dr. Hynek, as a scientist, you go back as far with UFO phenomenon as
probably anyone alive today. Exactly how did that relationship begin?
HYNEK: That’s an easy story to tell. In the spring of 1948, I was teaching
astronomy at Ohio State University, in Columbus. One day thee men, and they
weren’t dressed in black, came over to see me from Wright Patterson Air
Force Base in nearby Dayton. They started out by talking about the weather,
as I remember, and this and that, and then finally one of them asked me what
I thought about flying saucers. I told them I thought they were a lot of
junk and nonsense and that seemed to please them, so they got down to
business. They said they needed some astronomical consultation because it
was their job to find out what these flying saucer stories were all about.
Some were meteors, they thought, others stars and so on, so they could use
an astronomer. What the hell, I said, it sounded like fun and besides, I
would be getting a top secret security clearance out of it, too. At that
time, it was called Project Sign, and some of the personnel at least were
taking the problem quite seriously. At the same time a big split was
occurring in the Air Force between two schools of thought. The serious
school prepared an estimation of the situation which they sent to General
Vandenburg, but the other side eventually won out and the serious ones were
shipped off to other places. The negatives won the day, in other words.
My own investigations for Project Sign added to that, too, I think, because
I was quite negative in most of my evaluations. I stretched far to give
something a natural explanation, sometimes when it may not have really had
it. I remember one case from Snake River Canyon, I think it was, where a man
and his two sons saw a metallic object come swirling down the canyon which
caused the top of the trees to sway. In my attempt to find a natural
explanation for it, I said that it was some sort of atmospheric eddy. Of
course, I had never seen an eddy like that and had no real reason to believe
that one even existed. But I was so anxious to find a natural explanation
because I was convinced that it had to have one that, naturally, I did in
fact, it wasn’t until quite some time had passed that I began to change my
STACY: Was there ever any direct pressure applied by the Air Force itself
for you to come up with a conventional explanation to these phenomena?
HYNEK: There was an implied pressure, yes, very definitely.
STACY: In other words, you found yourself caught, like most of us, in a
situation of trying to please your boss?
HYNEK: Yes, you might as well put it that way, although at the same time I
wasn’t going against my scientific precepts. As an astronomer and physicist,
I simply felt a priori that everything had to have a natural explanation in
this world. There were no ifs, and or buts about it. The ones I couldn’t
solve, I thought if we just tried harder, had a really proper investigation,
that we probably would find as answer for. My batting average was about 80
per cent and I figured that anytime you were hitting that high, you were
doing pretty good. That left about 20 per cent unsolved for me, but only
about three or four per cent for the Air Force, because they used statistics
in a way I would never have allowed for myself. For example, cases labeled
as insufficient information they would consider solved ! They also had some
other little tricks. If a light were seen, they would say, “aircraft have
lights, therefore, probable aircraft.” Then, at the end of the year, when
the statistics were made up, they would drop the “possible” or “probable”
and simply call it aircraft.
STACY: What began to change your own perception of the phenomenon?
HYNEK: Two things, really. One was the completely negative and unyielding
attitude of the Air Force. They wouldn’t give UFOs the chance of existing,
even if they were flying up and down the street in broad daylight.
Everything had to have as explanation. I began to resent that, even though
I basically felt the same way, because I still thought they weren’t going
about it in the right way. You can’t assume that everything is black no
matter what. Secondly, the caliber of the witnesses began to trouble me.
Quite a few instances were reported by military pilots, for example, and I
knew them to be fairly well-trained, so this is when I first began to think
that, well, maybe there something to all this.
The famous “swamp gas” case which came later on finally pushed me over the
edge. From that point on, I began to look at reports from a different angle,
which was to say that some of them could be true UFOs.
STACY: As your own attitude changed, did the Air Force’s attitude toward you
HYNEK: It certainly did, quite a bit, as a matter of fact. By way of
background, I might add that the late Dr. James E. McDonald, a good friend
of mine who was then an atmospheric meteorologist at the University of
Arizona, and I had some fairly sharp words about it. He used to accuse me
very much, saying you’re the scientific consultant to the Air Force, you
should be pounding on generals’ doors and insisting on getting a better job
done. I said, Jim, I was there, you weren’t you don’t know the mindset.
They were under instruction from the Pentagon, following the Robertson Panel
of 1953, that the whole subject had to be debunked, period, no question
about it. That was the prevailing attitude. The panel was convened by the
CIA, and I sat in on it, but I was not asked to sign the resolution. Had I
been asked, I would not have signed it, because they took a completely
negative attitude about everything. So when Jim McDonald used to accuse me
of a sort of miscarriage of scientific justice, I had to tell him that had I
done what he wanted, the generals would not have listened to me. They were
already listening to Dr. Donald Menzel and the other boys over at the
Harvard Astronomy Department as it was.
STACY: Did you think you would have been shown the front door and asked not
to come back?
HYNEK: Inside of two weeks I imagine. You’re familiar with the case of Tycho
Brahe and Johannes Kepler from the history of astronomy? Brahe had the
observations and didn’t know what to do with them, and Kepler,who was
nearsighted and couldn’t make the observations, did. So essentially, I
played Kepler to the Air Force’s Tycho Brahe. I knew the Air Force was
getting the data and I wanted a look at it, so I made very full use of the
copying machines at Wright-Patterson. I kept practically a duplicate set of
records because I knew that someday that data would be worth something.
Toward the end, however, I was barely speaking with Major Quintanilla who
was in charge. We had started as really good friends and then things got
very bad because he had one lieutenant who was such a nincompoop, it seemed
to me. Everything had to be “Jupiter or Venus” or this or that. You have
no idea what a closed mind, what a closed attitude it was. I kept doggedly
on, but I can safely say that the whole time I was with the Air Force we
never had anything that resembled a really good scientific dialogue on the
STACY: They weren’t really interested in an actual investigation of the
HYNEK: They said they were, of course, but they would turn handsprings to
keep a good case from getting to the “attention of the media”. Any case they
solved, they had no trouble talking to the media about. It was really very
sad…. I think their greatest mistake in the early days, however, was not
turning it over to the universities or some academic group. They regarded it
as an intelligence matter and it became increasingly more and more
embarrassing to them. After all, we paid good tax dollars to have the Air
Force guard our skies and it would have been bad public relations for them
to say, yes there’s something up there, but we’re helpless. They just
couldn’t do that, so they took the very human action of protecting their own
interests. What they said was that we solved 96 per cent of the cases and
that we could have solved the other four per cent if we had just tried
STACY: Was it the famous Michigan sightings of 1966, explained away as
“swamp gas” that finally did lead the Air Force to bring in a reputable
HYNEK: Yes, that, as you know, became something of a national joke and
Michigan was soon being known as the “Swamp Gas State.” Eventually, it
resulted in a Congressional Hearing called for by then state Congressman,
Gerald Ford, who of course later went on to become President. The
investigation was turned over to the Brian O’Brien Committee who did a very
good job. Had their recommendations been carried out, things might have
turned out much better than they did. The recommended that UFOs be taken
away from the Air Force and given to a group of universities, to study the
thing in a as wide a way as possible. Well, they didn’t go to a group, they
went to a university and a man they were certain would be very hard-nosed
about it, namely, Dr. Edward Condon at the University of Colorado. That was
how the Condon Committee and eventually the Report came to be.
STACY: Were you ever called on to testify before, or advise the Committee?
HYNEK: In the early days they called on me to talk to them, to brief them,
but that was the extent of it. They certainly didn’t take any of my advice.
STACY: By 1968, the generally negative Condon Report was made public and the
Air Force used its conclusions to get out of the UFO business. Were you
still an official advisor or consultant at that time?
HYNEK: Oh, yes, I was with the Air Force right up until the very end, but it
was just on paper. No one had cut the chicken’s head off yet, but the
chicken was dead. The last days at Blue Book were just a perfunctory
shuffling of papers.
STACY: In terms of the UFO phenomenon itself, what was going on about this
HYNEK: Well, as you know, the Condon Report said that a group of scientists
had looked at UFOs and that the subject was dead. The UFOs, of course,
didn’t bother to read the report and during the Flap of 1973, they came back
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